"Itu adalah rute yang ter****" (It's the best route.) -- Which is correct, "terBAIK" or "terBAGUS"? I often refer to the following article about the difference between "baik" and "bagus". https://www.ilc-sydney.com/difference-between-baik-and-bagus/ BAIK: 1. Human beings & their inner quality 2. Animals & their inner quality 3. Situations & relationships BAGUS: 1. Inanimate objects & their quality 2. Intangible things & their quality Based on this definition, the answer probably would be "terBAGUS", but the Duolingo sentence is "terBAIK". A native speaker explained (on another Duolingo discussion page) that "terbagus" in any cases sounds unnatural. He recommended us to always use "terBAIK" as a translation of "the best". Is that true?

hasnadinar

29 Sep 2021

Featured answer

Indonesian
Javanese Near fluent

Hi,
Referring to KBBI, "baik" is also used to talk about inanimate and intangible things and their qualities, just like what you wrote for the definitions of "bagus". In other words, "baik" has a wider range of meaning and is interchangeable with "bagus" in most cases.

Let's take a look at some example sentences I could muster up :

1) Kerajinan itu baik sekali. / Kerajinan itu bagus sekali ==> both are correct but "bagus" is more natural.

2) Ia bernasib baik./ Ia mendapat kedudukan yang baik. ==> interchangeable with "bagus" but "baik" is way more natural

3) Permainannya baik sekali. / Permainannya bagus sekali. ==> both correct and natural

4) Buku ini sangat baik untuk dibaca. / Buku ini sangat bagus untuk dibaca. ==> both correct and natural with their own nuances; using "baik" would emphasize on its positive benefit and "bagus" would emphasize on its quality as a work of literature (the author has a good choice of words, the plot is interesting, the data is accurate, etc.). However, when you want to simply say "this book is very good!", "buku ini sangat bagus" is the acceptable form, as just like what the article said, the book is an inanimate object with no personality. When you continue it with a clause such as "this book is so good for children", etc. using baik would sound more natural as you are putting emphasis on the book's benefits and not its quality.

5) Orang itu baik sekali. ==> not interchangeable with "bagus". This is one of the few exceptions because you're talking about SOMEONE'S personality (they are kind) - I often come across Japanese learners that say "kamu orang yang bagus" instead of "kamu orang yang baik" when they want to say いい人だね and this may come across as offensive because bagus is used for objects most of the time.

6) Keadaan kami baik saja. ==> not interchangeable with "bagus", for the reason above.

7) Obat itu sangat baik untuk mengobati sakit kepala. / obat itu sangat bagus untuk mengobati sakit kepala. ==> both correct and natural

8) Lukanya sudah lebih baik. (his scar has healed) ==> not interchangeable with "bagus"

9) Mereka diterima dengan baik. ==> not interchangeable with "bagus"

10) Kita harus berbuat baik kepada orang tua ==> not interchangeable with "bagus"

11) Kualitas daging di toko itu memang baik. / Kualitas daging di toko itu memang bagus ==> both correct and natural

12) Anjingnya baik dan tidak nakal. / Anjingnya bagus dan tidak nakal. ==> both correct though "bagus" is slightly unnatural with a difference on its nuance as well. "Baik" means the dog is obedient while "bagus" means his quality as an animal is good (good fur, good healthy, etc.) but again overall "baik" is way more natural.

I skimmed over the article you cited and though I find the example sentences natural and the explanations correct, the conclusion part may need a little work. As I explained, "baik" has a wider range and can be used to talk about tangible/animate and intangible/inanimate objects, while "bagus" is mostly only used for intangible and inanimate objects only.

Back to the original question - why is the route "terbaik" and not "terbagus"? This is because you're emphasizing on how to get there. Hey, this is the best route - the roads are nice, no traffic jams, and maybe the views along the way are pleasing to see. You are not talking about the quality of the road itself but rather the quality of the journey should you pass through said route, hence "terbaik".
If you are talking about the quality of the road, you would say "ini jalan yang paling bagus di sekitar sini" because it is more natural than "ini jalan yang paling baik di sekitar sini" (though both are lexically correct).

Also, we native speakers tend to say "paling bagus" instead of "terbagus" because it sounds better in our ears. Doesn't apply to "paling baik", though. In that case "paling baik" sounds too formal in daily speech and we tend to say "terbaik".

Hope this helped! Reply if you have any follow-up questions!

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llynrmt

29 Sep 2021

Indonesian

yes, it's most natural to say terBAIK in this context.

If based on your reference, it could be included in the third usage, because this sentence explain the situation or the method that we want to choose,
this route is the best (terBAIK)

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neighbour12

29 Sep 2021

Indonesian

yes true..

in your sentence, TERBAIK is more natural..

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MsFixer

29 Sep 2021

Japanese

@llynrmt @neighbour12
Thank you for your answers!! I sometimes got confused between the third definition of BAIK (Situations & relationships) and the second one of BAGUS (Intangible things & their quality). Please correct me if I am wrong.

"The best route" in English has the nuance of "the most favorable for your own benefits" or "for your best sake" (demi kamu) in Indonesian. The route probable saves your time to transit, or gives you a great ocean view. So, use BAIK.

On the other hand, "Buku ini bagus" cannot be replaced with "Buku ini baik". A book is an intangible thing and we are simply talking about its quality.

I'm also curious when I can use "terBAGUS". It would be much appreciated if you could give me some example sentences with "terBAGUS".

hasnadinar

29 Sep 2021

Indonesian
Javanese Near fluent

Hi,
Referring to KBBI, "baik" is also used to talk about inanimate and intangible things and their qualities, just like what you wrote for the definitions of "bagus". In other words, "baik" has a wider range of meaning and is interchangeable with "bagus" in most cases.

Let's take a look at some example sentences I could muster up :

1) Kerajinan itu baik sekali. / Kerajinan itu bagus sekali ==> both are correct but "bagus" is more natural.

2) Ia bernasib baik./ Ia mendapat kedudukan yang baik. ==> interchangeable with "bagus" but "baik" is way more natural

3) Permainannya baik sekali. / Permainannya bagus sekali. ==> both correct and natural

4) Buku ini sangat baik untuk dibaca. / Buku ini sangat bagus untuk dibaca. ==> both correct and natural with their own nuances; using "baik" would emphasize on its positive benefit and "bagus" would emphasize on its quality as a work of literature (the author has a good choice of words, the plot is interesting, the data is accurate, etc.). However, when you want to simply say "this book is very good!", "buku ini sangat bagus" is the acceptable form, as just like what the article said, the book is an inanimate object with no personality. When you continue it with a clause such as "this book is so good for children", etc. using baik would sound more natural as you are putting emphasis on the book's benefits and not its quality.

5) Orang itu baik sekali. ==> not interchangeable with "bagus". This is one of the few exceptions because you're talking about SOMEONE'S personality (they are kind) - I often come across Japanese learners that say "kamu orang yang bagus" instead of "kamu orang yang baik" when they want to say いい人だね and this may come across as offensive because bagus is used for objects most of the time.

6) Keadaan kami baik saja. ==> not interchangeable with "bagus", for the reason above.

7) Obat itu sangat baik untuk mengobati sakit kepala. / obat itu sangat bagus untuk mengobati sakit kepala. ==> both correct and natural

8) Lukanya sudah lebih baik. (his scar has healed) ==> not interchangeable with "bagus"

9) Mereka diterima dengan baik. ==> not interchangeable with "bagus"

10) Kita harus berbuat baik kepada orang tua ==> not interchangeable with "bagus"

11) Kualitas daging di toko itu memang baik. / Kualitas daging di toko itu memang bagus ==> both correct and natural

12) Anjingnya baik dan tidak nakal. / Anjingnya bagus dan tidak nakal. ==> both correct though "bagus" is slightly unnatural with a difference on its nuance as well. "Baik" means the dog is obedient while "bagus" means his quality as an animal is good (good fur, good healthy, etc.) but again overall "baik" is way more natural.

I skimmed over the article you cited and though I find the example sentences natural and the explanations correct, the conclusion part may need a little work. As I explained, "baik" has a wider range and can be used to talk about tangible/animate and intangible/inanimate objects, while "bagus" is mostly only used for intangible and inanimate objects only.

Back to the original question - why is the route "terbaik" and not "terbagus"? This is because you're emphasizing on how to get there. Hey, this is the best route - the roads are nice, no traffic jams, and maybe the views along the way are pleasing to see. You are not talking about the quality of the road itself but rather the quality of the journey should you pass through said route, hence "terbaik".
If you are talking about the quality of the road, you would say "ini jalan yang paling bagus di sekitar sini" because it is more natural than "ini jalan yang paling baik di sekitar sini" (though both are lexically correct).

Also, we native speakers tend to say "paling bagus" instead of "terbagus" because it sounds better in our ears. Doesn't apply to "paling baik", though. In that case "paling baik" sounds too formal in daily speech and we tend to say "terbaik".

Hope this helped! Reply if you have any follow-up questions!

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MsFixer

29 Sep 2021

Japanese

@hasnadinar

Thank you for your comprehensive explanation! All of your examples are very helpful!! And the following examples are new to me (with a bit surprise). Here are my interpretations. Please correct me if I am wrong.

3) Permainannya baik sekali. / Permainannya bagus sekali. ==> both correct and natural

Both correct because of the same reason as 4) (buku)? "Permainannya baik" implies that you'll enjoy watching it -- the same as you'll enjoy the beautiful ocean view on the way (rute yang terbaik). And, "permainannya bagus" is like a review ranking, or the game is well organized -- the same as a road with no trash is described "bagus".

7) Obat itu sangat baik untuk mengobati sakit kepala. / obat itu sangat bagus untuk mengobati sakit kepala. ==> both correct and natural

Both correct!? Interesting. Does "obat itu BAIK" have the same nuance of 8) Lukanya sudah lebih baik? "Obat" (medicine) and "luka" (wound) are inanimate things. But both of them are related to animate human bodies. So, if my friend currently has a headache, I would say "obat itu baik" to recommend her to take it (to heal her pain and become "baik-baik saja" condition). On the other hand, "Obat itu BAGUS" is used when I compare more than one medicines by efficacy.

11) Kualitas daging di toko itu memang baik. / Kualitas daging di toko itu memang bagus ==> both correct and natural

This is a tricky part. "Kualitas daging BAIK" sounds to me like I have already been to the butcher, and I was always satisfied with the quality of meat. When I say BAIK about the meat, it reminds me of the pleasured dinner time with the meat. It's the same logic as BAIK for the route with the great ocean view. On the other hand, "kualitas daging BAGUS" sounds more objective, like a third party's review. If the butcher is the winner of meat processing competition, a newspaper reports with the word BAGUS.

---
P.S. I didn't know "terbaik" vs. "paling bagus". I though that "ter-" and "paling" are always interchangeable. But probably, the sound or liaison is different, it's subject to collocations. Now I understood why the guy on Duolingo said us to use "terbaik". He wasn't talking about the difference between "baik" and "bagus", but about "ter-" prefix and "paling".

hasnadinar

29 Sep 2021

Indonesian
Javanese Near fluent

@MsFixer Thanks for the reply! I'm glad to be of help.

3) Permainannya bagus sekali. / Permainannya baik sekali.
I'm guessing you misunderstood the sentence. The sentence doesn't refer to the quality of the sports match, but to the athlete.

"permainannya bagus" means "his/her skills are good" (permainan : hal/perbuatan/cara bermain). You can think of it this way : we judge whether an athlete is a good one by the way he/his uses his techniques, by his/her skills. We don't judge them by how they physically look. Therefore, there is no distinction to their "quality as an athlete" and "quality of their skills" as they are basically the same thing; "bagus" and "baik" are interchangeable.

If I were to talk about the match itself, I would use "pertandingan" and not "permainan". Even in that context, both "pertandingannya bagus" and "pertandingannya baik" are correct and natural; in other words, they are both interchangeable and have no difference in nuance. You may think that "baik" implies the spectators' satisfaction and "bagus" implies the quality of the game's technical organization, but it more or less means the same, actually.

"Permainan" also means a game, but more like a video game, or a group of children playing gobak sodor (a traditional Javanese game) in an open field. Here, you would use "bagus" instead of "baik" because it is something you can see (the movements, the field, etc.) and using "baik" would give off the nuance that you're trying to judge the players' skills. However, when implying that the game went well and it was fun, you use "permainannya berjalan baik." Though prior I said “baik” can be used to refer to both tangible and intangible items, it makes more sense than “bagus” in this case. Just because.

7) Obat itu sangat baik untuk mengobati sakit kepala. / Obat itu sangat bagus untuk mengobati sakit kepala.
"Obat itu baik" means that the quality of the medicine is good. Once you drink it, you heal fast. In the context of "lukanya membaik", the scar is the one that improves (it heals on its own because of bodily processes) while when you drink medicine, the chemicals inside the medicine work as agents that heal your disease (in other words the medicine doesn't improve/heal itself, that wouldn’t make sense). You can say it's different.

When comparing Medicine A to Medicine B, you would use "obat itu bagus" only because "baik" somehow refers to its intangible qualities (which, in this case, won’t be logical. Again, though “baik” can be used for both tangible and intangible items, it makes more sense than “bagus” here just because). It’s the same thing as to how you would go around saying “Komputer A bagus” and not “Komputer A baik” because you think of it as the object itself, without thinking of its correlation to the human body.

Again, “obat itu baik” only would sound stiff and unnatural except if it is followed by a clause such as “obat itu sangat baik untuk mengobati sakit kepala”. In that case of simply recommending the medicine in which the context is already clear, “obat itu bagus” would sound more natural.

11) Kualitas daging di toko itu memang baik. / Kualitas daging di toko itu memang bagus
Here, there is no distinction as to whether you have personally been to the butcher or not. The keyword here is not the “meat” (daging), but the “quality” (kualitas). When you talk about "kualitas”, “bagus” and “baik” would both make sense, as “kualitas” itself is about how good something is. Don’t sweat it too much and just think of both of these words as mere synonyms that can be used interchangeably as both of their definitions are nearly the same.

Replying to your side note : To clear up your confusion, the guy on Duolingo clearly told you to use “terbaik” because there is a lexical difference between “baik” and “bagus”, and not just because of the differences between “paling” and “ter-“. I am sure the guy on Duolingo didn’t recommend you to use “terbaik” because of the prefixes, it’s just that it’s more natural to say “terbaik” instead of “terbagus” because of the subtle lexical differences I have explained. Paling” and “ter-“ are always interchangeable, though there are some words that sound better with “paling” and some with “ter-“ just because it sounds better to our Indonesian ears. There’s no reason for that except that we like it better a certain way. You can say “terbagus” and Indonesian people will still understand you. Either way, in the case of the road in the original question, “terbaik” is more natural, even if you say “paling bagus” and not "terbagus".

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MsFixer

30 Sep 2021

Japanese

@hasnadinar

Thank you so much for taking my follow-on questions. May I reuse your example sentences for my blogs? I assure you all quotes will be properly attributed to your username. And my blogs are non-commercial.

Re: 3) Permainannya -- As you guessed, I mixed up "permainan" with "pertandingan". The example sentences with baik/bagus are about the athletes and their skills! Aha!

Re: 7) Obat itu -- This is a great case for me to understand how "baik/bagus" work differently when they are followed with a clause (untuk mengobati sakit kepala etc.)

Re: 11) Kualitas daging -- It's my bad habit. I always try to find a logic. As per your suggestion, I'll just swallow them as completely interchangeable synonyms in this case.

Re: terBAGUS -- the native guy didn't talk about the "best route" sentence. He was on another sentence discussion. Without an explanation, he just recommended us to ALWAYS use "terbaik" for ANY translations of "the best"... I wish he could deliver more details like you do.