質問
最終更新日：
2021年10月23日
- 英語 (イギリス)
-
日本語
日本語 に関する質問
もう見てる。違ったもんだね、崇拝者は! とはどういう意味ですか?
もう見てる。違ったもんだね、崇拝者は! とはどういう意味ですか?
Hello everyone.
I'm trying to read 『田舎の教師』(The Country Teacher) by 田山花袋 (Tayama Katai). There are a couple of sentences which I don't quite understand. I'ave attached a picture of the whole passage to give you some context and underlined the sentences which I don't quite understand. It's a dialogue between Seizō (an enthusiast of the Romantic Poetry by the Myōjō group) and Ishikawa (who, on the other hand, is not exactly a fan of those poems).
The first underlined sentence is pronounced by Ishikawa. How is that もう見てる used? Does that mean "You are still reading it?", addressed to Seizō? And the following sentence, I guess we have an inversion. It should be 崇拝者は違ったもんだね but what is that 違ったもんだね? Does that mean "It's different when you are an admirer, right?" ? It doesn't sound that right to me.
I guess what comes after that is a simple reply by Seizō, who says "I am because that is good stuff" or something like that.
Finally I don't get the last sentence. What I understand is "The three discussed all over again about whether the Myōjō group was good or not as they had done the other day". Does that make sense?
Actually, there is one more thing that bothers me. It's not in the attachment but later in the novel, the author writes: 「わが罪問はぬ色桃に見る」、桃に見る、あの赤い桃に見ると歌った心がしみじみと胸にしみた。
The first part between brackets is a passage of a poem quoted previously in the novel. I truly don't understand what is the purpose of all those 見ると and what 歌った心 is supposed to mean.
I know it's a long message so thank you everyone for your patience.
I'm trying to read 『田舎の教師』(The Country Teacher) by 田山花袋 (Tayama Katai). There are a couple of sentences which I don't quite understand. I'ave attached a picture of the whole passage to give you some context and underlined the sentences which I don't quite understand. It's a dialogue between Seizō (an enthusiast of the Romantic Poetry by the Myōjō group) and Ishikawa (who, on the other hand, is not exactly a fan of those poems).
The first underlined sentence is pronounced by Ishikawa. How is that もう見てる used? Does that mean "You are still reading it?", addressed to Seizō? And the following sentence, I guess we have an inversion. It should be 崇拝者は違ったもんだね but what is that 違ったもんだね? Does that mean "It's different when you are an admirer, right?" ? It doesn't sound that right to me.
I guess what comes after that is a simple reply by Seizō, who says "I am because that is good stuff" or something like that.
Finally I don't get the last sentence. What I understand is "The three discussed all over again about whether the Myōjō group was good or not as they had done the other day". Does that make sense?
Actually, there is one more thing that bothers me. It's not in the attachment but later in the novel, the author writes: 「わが罪問はぬ色桃に見る」、桃に見る、あの赤い桃に見ると歌った心がしみじみと胸にしみた。
The first part between brackets is a passage of a poem quoted previously in the novel. I truly don't understand what is the purpose of all those 見ると and what 歌った心 is supposed to mean.
I know it's a long message so thank you everyone for your patience.
回答
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- 日本語
「もう見てる、違ったもんだね崇拝者は！」
もう見てる
清三 immediately started reading the book（明星）石川 brought.
"You've already got it and read it.As expected, Myojo's followers(adherent )are different from others."
He's making sarcastic remarks. Ishikawa doesn't like Myojo because he doesn't understand how good it is.
The three of them have been discussing the good and bad aspects of Myojo many times.
「椿それも 梅もさなりき 白かりき 我が罪問わぬ 色桃に見る」
与謝野晶子の短歌です。
In this era of Japan, women were not allowed to speak publicly about love.
She was criticized in conservative times.
「我が罪問わぬ色桃に見る」I think it was very fresh, shocking and touching for 清三.
歌った＝詠った（うたった）詠む（よむ）
Writing a tanka is called 「うたう」
Tanka is a song without melody.
「あの赤い桃に見る」と 歌った心が
＝ Her heart, which wrote 「あの赤い桃に見る」
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上記以外の理由
- 日本語
もう見てる➡︎You already are reading it (enthusiastically )
違ったもんだね➡︎ (The enthusiasm of)an admirer (of the Myojo group) is really outstanding (markedly different from those who are not its admirer)
Your interpretation of Seizo’s reply and of the last sentence are correct.
I haven’t read the novel, so I am not well prepared to answer your last question.
But possibly 見る in this case indicates（wishful）interpretation by the poet of the color of a peach based on personification.
歌う in this case means to compose a poem. 詠（うた）うis used to mean it more often than 歌う.
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- 日本語
Hello thethomasthemason,
もう見てる
It means, "You have already started to see (read) it."
I'm not sure but I understand that Akiko was one of the best potes in Myojo group. In the magazine there were many other poems and pictures but Seizo found out a poem of Akiko very fast and started to read it at first.
違ったもんだね
>It should be 崇拝者は違ったもんだね
You are right. This is a conversation. At first Ishikawa told Seizo his emotion.
Ishikawa wants to say "An admirer is different from other people". "other people" means people who don't love Myojo style especially. Ishikawa asumes that other people don't find the poem of Akiko so fast either don't read it at first.
"もんだね" - this is expresion in conversation form. In case of formal form at a school it might be writtne "ものだね"。Even in modern Japanese "もん" is colloquially expressed instead of "もの".
I suppose that "だ" is not problem for you.
"ね" is a word which is similar to "isn't it?"
「だって実際いいんだもの」
Seizo knows what is a matter with Ishikawa. Ishikawa don't believe that Myojo style is good. So "崇拝者は違ったもんだね" is a sarcams. Seizo knows, Ishikawa wants to tell Seizo why Seizo loves Myojyo style. Then Seizo directly answar to Ishikawa's question. "Becasue in fact Myojyo style is good".
「いつかもやった明星派是非論、……」
Suddenly appears a thrid person, but probably befor this citation the third person was mentioned.
Anyway, Ishikawa is anti-Myojo style and Seizo is an admire of Myojo style. They discussed why Myojyo style is good/bad before. Now they started the same discussion again.
Now does this part makes sense for you?
By the way it is not described what is a third person's opinion.
「桃に見る、あの赤い桃に見ると歌った心」
I didn't read this novel. So I don't know what this part mean in an entire context.
I suppose, an auther of the poem feels that he comitted a sin which some colors remind him of. But red doesn't remind it.
If it is correct, I can understand this part in following ways;
「わが罪 問はぬ 色 桃に 見る」
[translation] I can see on a peach a color which doesn't care about my sin (= a color of which doesn't remind me.
桃に見る、あの赤い桃に見る
This is a repeat of the flagment of the poem.
[translation] It can be seen on a peach, I can be seen on a read peach.
と歌った心
In this case 歌う doesn't mean "sing a song" but "make a poem". We call "短歌" this style of poem.
[translation] emotion (=心) when <someone> wrote that "「わが罪問はぬ色桃に見る」、桃に見る、あの赤い桃に見る"
I hose that my explanation helps you.
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- 英語 (イギリス)
@kedapoka
Thank you so much for your answer, which definitely helped me make a better idea. I still have some issues with the 歌った心 part, which you translated as "her heart which wrote". Even if I interpret 歌う as related to poems (which I think it is the most obvious and correct choice), rather than singing, the literal translation of 心 as "heart" still doesn't make too much sense to me. I made a research online and I found sentences like these:
1) 誰もが抱える孤独と、愛されたいと願う気持ちを歌った心に響くバラードになっています。
2) ケツメイシが2002年に発売した4枚目のシングル「トモダチ」は、大人の目線で友達を歌った心を熱くさせる1曲です。
Translating 歌った心 as "heart singing/which sings" doesn't really feel right to me. Am I missing something?
Thank you so much for your answer, which definitely helped me make a better idea. I still have some issues with the 歌った心 part, which you translated as "her heart which wrote". Even if I interpret 歌う as related to poems (which I think it is the most obvious and correct choice), rather than singing, the literal translation of 心 as "heart" still doesn't make too much sense to me. I made a research online and I found sentences like these:
1) 誰もが抱える孤独と、愛されたいと願う気持ちを歌った心に響くバラードになっています。
2) ケツメイシが2002年に発売した4枚目のシングル「トモダチ」は、大人の目線で友達を歌った心を熱くさせる1曲です。
Translating 歌った心 as "heart singing/which sings" doesn't really feel right to me. Am I missing something?
- 日本語
@thethomasthemason
I'm sorry. I am not good at English.
I hope I can be of some help.
It may not be the right translation.
歌った心
Her feelings in the song
「あの赤い桃に見る」と歌った心がしみじみと胸にしみた。
・清三 deeply felt her mind when she wrote あの赤い桃に見る
・清三 felt deeply the feelings she had put into the song あの赤い桃に見る
（桃 in this sentence mean peach flowers. and 赤 is dark pink.）
Her mind（The meaning of tanka is）
＝White flower blames me, but the red of peach blossoms forgives me.
我が罪
It is a sin to fall in love and to talk about it. because woman marries a man chosen by her parents for the sake of the family.
Because the tanka was so famous at the time, the writer only wrote the second half of the tanka（下の句）, but it is assumed that the reader understands it.
⑴＆⑵ There are different places to separate words.
⑴…と願う気持ちを歌った/心に響く/バラード
⑵友達を歌った/心を熱くさせる/1曲
評価の高い回答者
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- 英語 (イギリス)
@kedapoka
No need to apologize at all. Your English is more than fine and I truly appreciate you taking some of your time to reply.
I think I get what you mean. One of my first ideas was to translate that part as "the meaning/emotion conveyed by the poem" which is another way, even if not literal, to make the reader understand that 清三 was overwhelmed by the contents of the tanka. I think is not that far from what you proposed as a more literal translation.
Your feedback really helped me a lot. 助けてくれてありがとうございました。
No need to apologize at all. Your English is more than fine and I truly appreciate you taking some of your time to reply.
I think I get what you mean. One of my first ideas was to translate that part as "the meaning/emotion conveyed by the poem" which is another way, even if not literal, to make the reader understand that 清三 was overwhelmed by the contents of the tanka. I think is not that far from what you proposed as a more literal translation.
Your feedback really helped me a lot. 助けてくれてありがとうございました。
- 日本語
@thethomasthemason
You are welcome (⁎ᵕᴗᵕ⁎)
"the meaning/emotion conveyed by the poem"
I see. That's what you mean. There's no need to translate it exactly as it is in Japanese.
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- 英語 (イギリス)
Sorry for this new message but I had a conversation with a senior of mine, not a Japanese native, who had recently read the same novel. He told me that, according to him, the sentence 「違ったもんだね、崇拝者は！」was not referred to 清三 but to the 明星派. He knows Japanese literature way better than me and he told me that the poets of 明星派 were referred to as fanatics/admirers of the European Romantic Movement. So basically, 石川 would say: "They really are something different/unusual, those fanatics!" and 清三 would reply "No way, they're good!"
My friend could definitely be right about this, but to me it was really interesting that all the three of you who answered my question, who I read are all Japanese, did not interpret it that way and thought the sentence was referred to 清三. Can the Japanese language be so ambiguous sometimes that even natives can interpret it the wrong way? Or was my friend simply wrong?
My friend could definitely be right about this, but to me it was really interesting that all the three of you who answered my question, who I read are all Japanese, did not interpret it that way and thought the sentence was referred to 清三. Can the Japanese language be so ambiguous sometimes that even natives can interpret it the wrong way? Or was my friend simply wrong?
- 日本語
@thethomasthemason
I'm not a literature researcher, so I didn't know 明星派 was commonly called a "崇拝者".
（Only the following articles were found on the Internet.
・Explanation of 石川啄木「政府はアナーキストをテロ信奉の狂信者の如く評しているが」
・新版評伝与謝野寛晶子
「女性的和歌を崇拝する」一派の毒害を難じた亡国の音に通ずるものである）
Without such prior knowledge, the pure meaning of this sentence is what he is saying to 清三.
明星派が崇拝者と呼ばれていたという事前知識がない状態では、明星を泉から水を飲むように熱心に読んでいる清三が「崇拝者」ということになります。清三は「ロマン主義である明星派」の、崇拝者です。
But there is no doubt that this is ironic.「違ったもんだね」
When my friends are crazy about things they don't understand, I say, 「そんなにいいものなんですね〜（＝私は理解できないけど）」This is not a compliment or a criticism, just ironic.
The Meiji era was very different from the modern era. If I don't know the historical background, it is difficult to receive the meaning correctly in the same state as it was then.
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- 日本語
Though I still haven’t read the novel, I don’t think the issue here is ambiguity of Japanese language.
You couldn’t interpret properly a single passage isolated from its context.
評価の高い回答者
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- 英語 (イギリス)
@kedapoka
According to my senior friend, they were not exactly "called" like that. I mean, it was not another name to call those belonging to 明星派. But people with literature knowledge knew they were 崇拝者 of the Romantic Movement and that is why 石川 would use that word. Anyway, I still think that 石川 was referring to his friend, as you say.
@f0f3b539
I get what you mean. However, I think the passage I included as an attachment contains all the elements needed to understand the context. Basically, the two friends meet and one of them gives the other the 明星 magazine. He starts to read it with enthusiasm and then the two discuss the value of the movement's poets. Irony is easy to grasp as well as the fact that the two friend have opposite ideas, as one can understand reading the dialogue between the two. Moreover, the word 崇拝者 was never used until then and will never be used again in the novel. However, a few chapters later on, 清三 claims that he worships 明星 saying 「自分の崇拝すうはいしている明星…」
Again, what I find interesting is that English itself can of course be ambiguous but if I said "They're different, those fanatics, aren't they?" rather than "It's different when you are a fanatic, isn't it?", you could immediately understand who I'm referring to, even if you don't know what I'm talking about. I just like to explore these aspects of a language, which to me are really interesting.
According to my senior friend, they were not exactly "called" like that. I mean, it was not another name to call those belonging to 明星派. But people with literature knowledge knew they were 崇拝者 of the Romantic Movement and that is why 石川 would use that word. Anyway, I still think that 石川 was referring to his friend, as you say.
@f0f3b539
I get what you mean. However, I think the passage I included as an attachment contains all the elements needed to understand the context. Basically, the two friends meet and one of them gives the other the 明星 magazine. He starts to read it with enthusiasm and then the two discuss the value of the movement's poets. Irony is easy to grasp as well as the fact that the two friend have opposite ideas, as one can understand reading the dialogue between the two. Moreover, the word 崇拝者 was never used until then and will never be used again in the novel. However, a few chapters later on, 清三 claims that he worships 明星 saying 「自分の崇拝すうはいしている明星…」
Again, what I find interesting is that English itself can of course be ambiguous but if I said "They're different, those fanatics, aren't they?" rather than "It's different when you are a fanatic, isn't it?", you could immediately understand who I'm referring to, even if you don't know what I'm talking about. I just like to explore these aspects of a language, which to me are really interesting.
- 日本語
I got what you mean.
I’m willing to admit that compared with Western languages Japanese tends to depend more on (implicit) context, especially in the situation such as conversation between intimate friends.
This case might be its example.
評価の高い回答者
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- 日本語
@thethomasthemason
I think your friend is right about who 崇拝者 is. The author may be trying to make it mean both. I'm learning from you, too :)
By the way, as a reward for my help to you, let me know what you think of this story if you like.
I'm interested in that.
評価の高い回答者
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- 英語 (イギリス)
@kedapoka It might be a double-entendre, after all. Even if the fact that later on 清三 uses the word 崇拝 to talk about himself could make you think that it was actually him whom 石川 called a 崇拝者. I know there is an English translation available but I do not have it. It would be interesting to see how it was interpreted there.
Anyway, I think it's a really nice novel. Today, it's probably less known than Tayama's "蒲団 Futon" but I think you can already see many of the elements that made that following novel the jumping-off point of Japanese Naturalism. It's a slow-paced story where the emotions and thoughts of the characters are probably more important than actions and events. The writer's focus is on the everyday life of a character who could really be anybody but just like the best "slice of life" stories, it's that simplicity that makes you realize how life can be so charming, even if you look just at the smallest things. And of course, at the same time, the whole novel is an interesting depiction of the time filled with changes which were the ending years of the Meiji era.
Anyway, I think it's a really nice novel. Today, it's probably less known than Tayama's "蒲団 Futon" but I think you can already see many of the elements that made that following novel the jumping-off point of Japanese Naturalism. It's a slow-paced story where the emotions and thoughts of the characters are probably more important than actions and events. The writer's focus is on the everyday life of a character who could really be anybody but just like the best "slice of life" stories, it's that simplicity that makes you realize how life can be so charming, even if you look just at the smallest things. And of course, at the same time, the whole novel is an interesting depiction of the time filled with changes which were the ending years of the Meiji era.
- 日本語
@thethomasthemason
In my conversations with you, I came to think that The author let 石川 express the author's opinion. The author knew 明星 was good, but he wasn't anti-government.
I consider this story a solace and lesson for the loser.
--------
I believed your icon for beginner to intermediate Japanese, so I replied in poor English, maybe I should have replied in Japanese to you. I think my lack of understanding of your question has frustrated you.
I was glad that you repeated your question and explanation politely. Many questioners have a one-sided attitude and treat me like AI replacement.
Sometimes there is good learning like this time, and that's why I'm here, answering questions.
Thank you for responding my request.
評価の高い回答者
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- 英語 (イギリス)
@kedapoka Yes, that could definitely be the case.
I'm really glad you enjoyed our discussion. I would not say my Japanese is more than intermediate level but a reply in Japanese would have been totally fine. You are all using a language which is not your mother tongue so I truly appreciate that. I think what's important, when it comes to questions like mine, is not only the answer itself but also the exchange with the people who answer, comparing ideas, so thank you so much again for your time and kindness.
I'm really glad you enjoyed our discussion. I would not say my Japanese is more than intermediate level but a reply in Japanese would have been totally fine. You are all using a language which is not your mother tongue so I truly appreciate that. I think what's important, when it comes to questions like mine, is not only the answer itself but also the exchange with the people who answer, comparing ideas, so thank you so much again for your time and kindness.
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